What can we learn from the game changers in the global health trend?

Peter Wennstrom


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Podcast Transcript

Wouter: Peter, thank you so much for being on the podcast.

Peter: Well, thank you, Wouter for inviting me.

Wouter: It’s all the way live from Sweden, down to the little town of Huizen, in The Netherlands, near Amsterdam. So, we'll dive into the big world of health and nutrition. And most importantly, what others, who do not work in this industry, can learn from, for instance, how the global health trend is changing consumers.

But first. Me personally, and hopefully also the audience would love to know a little more about you personally. What made you the health marketing man? Were you unhealthy when you were younger maybe?

Peter: Well no, haha! Fortunately not. I was actually, the background is that I was working in the advertising industry and we were then working with, let’s say, food products on the one side. And then we were working with pharma products on the other side. So it gave a sort of an early understanding that food and health could be seen in different ways. But health wasn't really sort of the topic on the food side. Then in the early nineties, I was then approached by clients, mainly scientist, who were actually working with something which they called functional foods. And that then sorted of scientifically backed ingredients in sort of normal food products. And they wanted help in communicating, positioning this. And I found it very exciting. You were working with entrepreneurs and scientists who were then trying to bring a sort of health into the public domain, in for instance functional foods. And these were the days when Yakult came to Europe. It was the days of Danone Actimel. And I was working quite a lot with probiotic projects. And it was really fascinating. And that was the key, it was fascinating. It connected to myself at sort of that time. To myself, my lifestyle, my family. Realizing that there are other ways than medicine and that our lifestyles are key to health. And that our food and diet choices are key to health. And the thing that really fascinated me, then and still does, is the drama. Because functional foods introduced an alternative strategy for health prevention and alternatively also for health management and to actually cure conditions. So what happened very early was, let’s say, the conflict. You can almost say, the underlying conflict between functional foods and the medical community. And that then has been very clear with, let’s say EFSA and the health claims regulations, where functional foods are not allowed to prove that they can actually sort of cure or prevent conditions. So that has been a fascinating journey.

Wouter: Yeah.

So, you never ever were a heavy smoker or drinker? You didn’t have your downfall health wise to have the epiphany to work in the health sector?


Peter: Well, no. I think I’ve been very normal in that sense. I used to smoke when I was young and I haven’t given up on drinking yet. So, I have given up on smoking, cause that ended up as a pretty silly habit when you realize what you were doing. But otherwise, as you can imagine, I have been quite impregnated with scientific facts and studies. So in a way, I’ve been a little bit preaching to my family. Sometimes they have been a little bit tired of me.

Wouter: Yeah. So. If you weren’t unhealthy, what made you understand the people that lead an unhealthy life? What made the urgency so much bigger, for it becoming your true focus business wise?

Peter: You could almost say that the thing that challenged or intrigued me, was very much the communication challenge. I came from the advertising industry. I studied sort of psychology. And the thing that really intrigued me was, how do you communicate health to consumers? You need to understand, how do you get consumers on board. Because originally it was just sort of scientific messages. And quite rational. And there were quite a lot of failures. You can say, maybe one side of this was the beauty of trying to actually do a good thing, promoting health. But the professional challenge and the professional mission was actually to help companies communicate health better. That’s where I saw I could really add something.

Wouter: Lately, we’ve seen an increase of all the documentaries, and yes the foodie became mainstream as a lifestyle aspect, etc. Was the urgency always similar as you saw it? Like twenty years ago when you started or maybe longer, compared to today? Because it’s so more obvious apparently within the media.

Peter: Yeah, it has been a growing urgency. I had the pleasure and the fortune to work on all continents. In developed countries as well as emerging markets. What I’ve seen there has made the urgency even bigger when you start to see all the welfare diseases. How diabetes, obesity, cardiovascular diseases are spreading so quickly. And how the impact of the Western diet or the Western lifestyle is hitting these young growing economies very hard. So that helped me understand the drama. I mean, on the home front. You live in The Netherlands and I live in Sweden, we are welfare countries. You don’t really see the health problem. I mean, you may see some obese people etcetera, you don’t really notice that. But when you start to travel the world, you realize that we are having a big problem. And the big problem is that fast increase of unhealth in the global population. That’s the so-called, non-communicable diseases. Basically, the way you eat and live your life is killing you. And so, that’s the challenge, how do you change that.

Wouter: Yeah. I’ll be honest. With a lot of major issues that we are facing, and where we need a lot more sustainable thinking, and a huge transformation, I (I live on the upside, I’m a positive guy), but I feel so hopeless every now and then. What makes you hopeful?

Peter: Well, I do actually believe in change. I do believe that people, I mean, we are homo sapiens, we are survivors and we seem to fix problems as we go along. We come out of global wars, we come out of catastrophes. But of course yes, now today we are facing a double burden. We have the climate challenge, and we have our own internal little climate challenge, with the unhealth trend. But I do see, you can just look at the very quick uptake of healthier diets. If you look at almost the explosion of plant-based that you see in our parts of the world and also spreading to early adopters elsewhere. You can just look at the Greta-effect. How the younger generation is now suddenly standing up and say: ’the future is ours’.

Wouter: True.

Peter: And the same goes for health. When the younger generation can say; ‘We care about our future and we see how you have ended up. We want to end up in another way. In a more healthy way’.

Wouter: Yeah. And do you think that will work, do you think that will resonate towards some downtown city in Argentina? Where the meat consumption is sky-high and people simply do not think of the matter that they have degenerative diseases or heart diseases caused by their diet?

Peter: Well, that goes together with quite nice red wine so that’s hard to change. But we need to look at the world and understand that people are at different stages of understanding health. And when we have been working with clients in different parts of the world, it can be quite dramatic when you realize that, for example, we in the Western world are sort of shying away from sugar, and that is in the mass market. You can go down to Egypt for example and they poor tablespoons of sugar into their tea and they ask: ‘What’s the problem with sugar?’. SO the different nations different cultures, different geographies are at different stages of the health trend. And that is something that is just natural. Health trends go with welfare, with education. So it's also part of developing a country, its also connected to health and wellness.

Wouter: Yeah, it would be an illusion to create the awareness allover at the same level at the same time.

Peter: No, it wouldn’t work. But you do see different parts of the world that governments, (governments!), take initiatives in different ways. I mean, look at an example like Mexico where they put taxes on soft drinks. Because you do have a dramatic obesity problem. And you see similar actions elsewhere. So, let’s call them the emerging nations, can then be actually more dramatic in their actions to curb this. Because they cannot afford to wait until the last consumer has grasped this voluntarily.

Wouter: Yeah, true.

Peter: So you will actually see more governments interventions because it means money for the governments. Just today I joined a session that was about a government initiative in Sweden that was all about how you manage nutrition in elderly care because there was starvation, malnourishment. And people are dying because of malnourishment, and you give them medicine, not proper nutrition. So the government realizes there is money to save by actually providing proper nutrition.

Wouter: Interesting! So, yeah, as we said in the introduction, we’re gonna full-on dive into the world of food, health, and nutrition. Which is big. Difficult to grasp. But we’re gonna try it anyway. Just to end-off with learnings and very practical stuff.

So, obviously, you mentioned a couple of examples already. There’s obviously a lot going on the health side when it comes to we, the people. Millions are obese and pretty much the most unhealthy diet imaginable has become mainstream. Let’s first build some context and then further understand ‘why’ it is happening, and who the game changers are, and what motivates them. Building some context, what is happening in the world of food if you take the guideline from the brilliant report you’ve written?

Peter: Well, the main observation is that we’re moving from a society where you had food on the one side. That gave you substance, energy, enjoyment. And then you had medicine on the other hand. It was bound to take care of your health. So you ate food and then when you felt ill, you sort of fell into the emergency ward. And that’s very much a Western view. We keep these things apart. In Asia, you have a more traditional way of the view of ‘let food be thy medicine’. But of course, we’ve given them our Western view, which has been negative. But what we’ve then have been observing of the years now. And I think it is really here now. Is that, it’s no longer food or medicine, it’s nutrition at the focus. And that means that food is there to be helping you to stay healthy. And nutrition is then the whole engine for this. So our simple conclusion is that the game is changing for the food and for the pharma industry. Cause now it’s all about nutrition. And at the center of that stands the consumer, who is now more interested in nutrition than ever. Because they’re interested in how they actually gain health from foods, diets, and ingredients, and everything that’s a part of the daily nutrition. So, that’s our main observation. The game is changing and the future is all about nutrition. That was the starting point for our analysis of then looking at, ok, then what are the game changers? And then we see the game changers as you can call them macro trends but they all are connected to nutrition. So it means that the first game changer is that food must be for health and wellbeing. We cannot have foods that actually kill us in the long term. And then, of course, the second game changer is people. Meaning that we must provide nutrition to different kinds of people. Different demographics. Different socio-economics. And different needs. And then we also need to manage our resources. So we need to bring nutrition in a sustainable way. And then, of course, natural production is an ongoing game-changer. That we cannot sort of deplete the food from nutrients on the way from the farm to the fork. So it’s very much about changing processes. And then we see science as sort of a fifth game-changer. Where nutrition scientists and other scientists are helping us to understand even more about how we can use nutrition to even actually target conditions. Conditions that have hit a tube, and almost monopolized by the pharming industry. And we are talking about things like diabetes for example. Where we see that nutritional therapies can actually do what medication is doing. But of course, there’s also resistance from the old system. And they finally are a game-changer in itself. We now that, of course, the smartphones put in the hands of people. The apps. The possibility to now manage your health will be the final and the strong game-changer because it puts everything into your hand. And then from that, we see the strategy of I-nutrition. Which means it’s all about me. And then is when we then accelerate this whole trend, because the consumer takes control over their health. And we can see it now in the healthcare system. More and more consumers are actually going to the web doctor because they are there for them when the healthcare system isn’t really there for them. So there are these six game-changers that we are observing and they are also the basis for our report. Cause each of these game-changers then leads to a strategy that you can then follow. And also, of course, leads to different trends that we try to illustrate with lots of brand examples.

Wouter: Maybe it’s a good thing if we deep-dive into a couple of the trends and the individual game-changers. Maybe, for instance, the technology one. Because, I read the report, and I sensed there’s a common denominator compared to other industries. Just the example you gave, that we are more educated when we approach our doctor. I sense the same thing is going on in the financial world for instance. So technology is supporting us with the information etc.

What is your top of mind favorite game-changing trend? What is typical for the consumer trend that comes with it.

Peter: Do you mean in the area of technology?

Wouter: Yeah, for instance, take that one.

Peter: Well, I would probably say, just thinking, we have a trend called ‘go track yourself’. And it is contagious. Because once you start to track yourself you start to own your own health, or at least the measurements of your own health. Or what you believe are the measurements of your own health. And once you started, then you want to continue. It brings, tools to personalize. And with that, you can take ownership of your own health. So think that is probably one of the trends that will accelerate this whole development. When the consumer is definitely in the driving seat. And they will of course then demand personalized support. So, if you think of this trend, it means that you as a consumer is potentially sitting with all the information about your own health, so, what do you need a doctor for? You need a doctor to consult on things that don’t look right. Or if you have a condition that is growing. But you are, in that sense, the expert of your health. Of your holistic health. And the doctor can then consult you on his specialty.

Wouter: How far away are we from very specific knowledge with regards to blood levels, heart rate, in the moment now?

Peter: Well, when I opened the newspaper this weekend, there was an ad for a company that now offers blood tests. And they had a number of clinics across Sweden. And you can buy a blood test package online and then leave some blood at one of these clinics, And then you could buy a sort of 35 parameters test, or a 45 parameters test, or a ‘are you pregnant test?’, or are you this test or that. And when you look at the number of parameters they then measure, it sort of answers your question. You have everything there. Your vitamin levels. All the way from, let’s say, vitamins levels in your blood to the PSA levels or other things. So it gives you a full spectrum of health indications.

Wouter: I had a colleague not so long ago. Luckily he’s still around, but not working at the company anymore. I knew he had diabetes and I was struck, in a positive way. I think it was about every thirty minutes he took his iPhone out and hold it against his shoulder. And then had his check. So, he’s obviously quite an extreme example with symptoms. But if that would come down to, yeah my perfect level of maybe gluten intolerance, or maybe just normal diet, it’s close by.

Peter: It is. I also had a colleague some years ago who had diabetes. And she had an app that registered her sort of diet lifestyle and insulin injections etc. So when she came to her doctor, I mean just as you go to the garage today they take out a computer and plug it into your engine. So that’s basically what the doctor did with her iPhone. Plugged into her app, then he could follow what she had done. And they could then have a very good dialogue about her health.

Wouter: Maybe give a couple more examples of the game-changer consumers and why we should know them.

Peter: Well, when you say game-changing consumers, this is the thing I really love with our report. Because the first thing we did then was present the game changers, and let’s say nineteen game-changing trends. With lots, sort of, one hundred brand examples. But the next step was then to look at the game-changing consumers. And there we have been working together with Master students from Lund University. The Masters of Applied Cultural Analysis. So with an international research group, we have then been looking deeper in, call it the early adopter consumers or some call them the millennials. We call them lifestyle consumers. And we actually branded them the game-changer consumers. The consumers who will accelerate the trends. And then we tried to identify the belief systems of the game changer consumers. And it was a really interesting research project. Cause we had observed that when you talk to people who are, for example, vegans or follow a certain diet, you cannot have a rational dialogue. They are fundamentalists. So it’s almost like talking to a Jew or a Muslim or a Christian. They will not change because of you having some rational arguments. So we gave the research group the research title: The Church of Healthy Eating. We needed to understand, what are the religions. And they came out with a new title. No, it’s the Pantheon of healthy eating. They identified four different belief systems. That helped us understand we are no longer looking at a healthy eater consumer, we are looking at a healthy believer consumer. And I think that was a really nice breakthrough. By looking at these four consumer segments with four very different belief systems. That can then help us understand.

Wouter: Yeah, that also. Because I wrote it down. That the same aspect of…. I see parallels with consumers. Not just healthy eaters but becoming believers, it’s relevant to for instance economy as well. People start to believe a change needs to come, for instance for the economic system.

Peter: Yeah, it’s true. It goes all the way. Of course, if you have a certain belief system, it will then influence everything you look at. And if you then sort of have a belief system that we call the ethics, of course then that will influence how you view the financial system, as well as how you view the food system. Compared to others. So, these (we normally talk about consumer segments), their belief systems will follow them when they, let’s say, look into different industries.

Wouter: And of course, to be more explicit. The report is about one phase of maturity basically. It’s very specifically about the early adopting millennials or the early lifestyle makers.

Prior to the interview, we discussed the China Study. Remember, about the book? To date the most comprehensive large study ever undertaken for the relation between diet and risk of developing the disease. So also documentaries as “Foodmatters” are based on the study. And for instance, and I quote what the Foodmatters documentary examines: “Examines the profound claim that most, if not all, of the degenerative diseases that afflict us, can be controlled, or even reversed, by rejecting our present menu of animal-based and processed foods.” So, a plant-based diet can likely save millions of lives. Not to mention the lower economic risk of all the insurance costs we are increasingly paying. But yet, the 8 o’clock national television news, let to say the government, doesn’t take a stand by simply stating to a broad audience: “Hey, if you want to live a longer happier life, delete meat and processed food from your diet.” So, the big question, I know, how DO we approach? How do we reach and motivate people? How do we go from the game changers, the lifestyle stakeholders, to the mass market stakeholders?

Peter: You said, the normal answer would be that in order for the trends to really go from the early adopters to the early mass, they must be, Wouter you said sort of an old word, convenient. Easy to adopt. And when you also come to a topping point, when it’s not seen as unnatural for me to do these actions. And you can take the plant-based food developments here, it’s a very good example. What I see now around me is that we are at a tipping point. What I’m just referring now is my sort of Swedish context. I looked at that today. That the environmental trend, I mean let’s look at the whole game-changer of sustainable nutrition, is an extremely strong fundamental driver that is influencing the changes that are going on now. The climate and health are going hand in hand. And suddenly you start to realize that, let’s say, the meat you put into your meatballs or your tacos, or let’s say the minced meat, or the chicken slices that go into the chicken tiki, they can actually be replaced. Without losing cooking convenience. Without losing taste, texture. It basically tastes exactly like minced meat, exactly like chicken, when you have it as ingredients in your cooking. That’s what I see exploding now. Are we suddenly have minced meat from soy. Or you have it from oats or sort of pulled oats or other things. And it tastes just like the original. And it becomes very easy for an early mass-consumer to choose this. Because you’re not losing anything, You’re just winning a little bit of a better conscience and you seem to do the right thing. That’s where the mass market balances. You’re not taking a social risk. You’re not taking a personal risk. So it does mean when the industry has started to de-risk your choices, then it will tip over. And we are starting to get close to that. So as soon as you see some more scandals from the meat industry, how they treat the chicken or how they treat the pigs, then it’s very easy to say no to meat products that are used as ingredients. Because can easily be replaced without loss of taste or anything. So it does move meat very quickly into a high premium niche where it’s all about sort of being grass-fed, organic, well treated, good animal welfare, etc.

Wouter: That’s how markets and consumers organize themselves basically.

Peter: It is.

Wouter: And it is also the answer to how food and health companies make the game-changers trend work for their innovation.

Peter: It is.

Wouter: Because literally, it comes down to brand innovation. So first start with, call it the business cases, the test cases, and from there let it grow.

Peter: It does.

Wouter: And the best example would be from here locally in The Netherlands. That the company called The Vegetarian Butcher, paradoxically, was recently bought by Unilever.

Peter: Haha, you see.

Wouter: Yeah. And the fun part is even. We got the main sausage company in The Netherlands, I won’t pronounce the name, ah well, it’s Stegeman, so typical with the “G”, that was a big partner in the Vegetarian Butcher Company. And the guys started the Vegetarian Butcher, he’s on a mission. He said: “Vegetarian meat will become mainstream. And that’s when I stop my mission.” And the best purposeful entrepreneurs, they stop their company when the problem is over. When their innovation became mainstream. When the mass market came around.

Let’s try to distill a little bit of the learnings from the global health trend to other industries. We’ve tapped in on economy and finance. Or let it be learnings for organizations in general. Would the game-changers account for motivations suitable for other industries as well? What comes across for you?

Peter: Well, they do. I would say of course if we look at the game-changers, they are quite fundamental. If you sort of just takes away food, then you look at the game-changer around people, resources, technology, production, and science….

Wouter: It is a massive value chain.

Peter: It is exactly. So if you just replace food with another industry, then you can say the game-changers are still valid. Because you need them to actually cater to a growing number of people, different needs, different socio-economics. You need to manage the resources, you need to start producing more natural and let’s say nature-friendly way. You need to lead with science, to have a smarter future. And then you lead with technology. So, the game-changers are there for every industry. Although our focus is on food. So basically replace food with anything, and you can use the game-changers as a way to get the present to view the future.

Wouter: I’m gonna make it a little bit of a specific tease-question. What can the fashion industry learn from game-changers?

Peter: Well, I think the fashion industry follows suit. The fashion industry is of course very much into innovation and following trends. So if you then replace then food with clothes, then you say: The first carrier needs to cater to different needs and ideas of people, so individualism. And also different price points. Then you look at resources, then you need to produce garments and everything in a sustainable way. We cannot sort of have irrigation on cotton that destroys nature, etc. You need natural production, you use science to produce smarter en you use technology to then keep up with consumers so they can actually buy online and get their measurements, etc. And then you’re back at, you can call it i-fashion. Meaning that I can then have all my measurements and connect that to an online retailer and get a sort of ‘my perfect costume’ online. So, it’s a stimulating game you’re inviting me to Wouter. To spin the game-changers for different industries. But you see, it’s quite easy. The game-changers are there for every industry.

Wouter: It makes a lot of sense just by even swopping the word.

Peter: It does.

Wouter: So, I’m gonna take a different tour. I see big pharma in a similar category as for instance economy and education. Call it systems we are so used to, which such dominance, that we simply do not know where to start to change them. Fighting them seems impossible. How do we take on pharma? How do we take on pharma?

Peter: Well, big pharma is, of course, an old paradigm. And we are living in a paradigm shift. So the old paradigm then, in a sense, is attacked by the new paradigm. And it means that we do see, pharma is a very mature industry, it’s getting more and more difficult to qualify new drugs, and it’s an industry that grows via mergers and acquisitions, so sideways. And their innovation funnels are getting dryer and dryer, they’re buying new innovations. And I do believe then, we also see science, they are then starting to look more and more into the nutritional field. Because that’s where many of the future opportunities lie. So you could say that both food and pharma will need to start looking at this. And there will be a transition. Meaning that sort of like early adopting pharma companies will start a tradition that will be more….I mean you can just compare it with the food industry, you can compare it with the car industry. There are always early adopters and then there are the laggards. And some of the laggards will have problems. If you just look ate Heinz Kraft in the food industry. And then you can do comparisons over to other industries.

Wouter: I will be very judgmental on purpose because I see big pharma as the big angry monster. You know that’s also the dogma or image that they’ve got.

Peter: Yeah!

Wouter: So if I understand you right, it takes a transition but will it take place similar to for instance the petrol companies. Because Shell recently, for the first time, I think it was this month, for the first time said: ‘Ok, we are an energy company and we are investing more towards the sustainable sources. And we are moving away from fossil etc.

Peter: I do believe yes. I mean the first reaction is resistance and then you use lawyers and everything you can to stop the new paradigm. And then as the new paradigm grows, more and more companies will then start to change or adapt to the change. But it does mean, if you look at for example how the EFSA health claim system is set up and sort of maintained, it’s not far fetched to believe that there is quite a substantial bit of, shall I call it, lobbying of the pharma industry. To sort of keep that old division between ‘medicine is curing and food is just giving you substance. And the food is not allowed to have any health claims about sort of curing or alleviating symptoms.’ So we have systems that want to preserve themselves. And they go across industry and into governments and government bodies of course.

Wouter: Yeah, and for big pharma, there’s also a lot of lives at stake. So they cannot just give up on the old way of doing business and say “let’s all move into the honest new stuff.”

Peter: No, it’s impossible. I had an interesting discussion with a scientist this week who is working in the area of probiotics. We do see this science, talking about the microbiome, is clearly moving into sort of pharma territories. I think we had a sort of wise discussion that you need to win the clinicians, the health care practitioners over, one by one, and not try to attack too much. Basically, win with evidence. Because it’s better to play a logical game, or a game of logic and knowledge, instead of sort of scapegoats or blame game. So win with knowledge.

I really favor that.

Wouter: If you would use your knowledge in a different industry, what would it be? And why?

Peter: Oehh. I would then try to actually use my knowledge within the public health sector. It is in a way the same industry. That’s the first thing that came to mind. Cause I think it’s an industry that really needs to be shaken up. Because today it’s a long way from having a consumer-centric approach. Or let’s say the system is not a consumer or patient-centric. So that’s where I would spend my energy.

Wouter: So when we first talked many years ago you mentioned a phrase resonated often. I think about it a lot. Also, because I changed the phrase and started using it in my own different way. I will first mention your phrase. You said: "We are all in the business of health". So when you mentioned that during our phone call a couple of years ago, quickly afterward…. You know I’m passionate about the end goal being wellbeing…..so I coined it: "We are all in the business of wellbeing". What do you think of both?

Peter: No, I like the evolution there. Because health then means health or unhealth. You could say it’s almost like a passed stage. Wellbeing then moves into body and mind combination. Wellbeing, it’s a sense of wellbeing. And it’s more relevant than health. It’s almost like it’s a physical state. So wellbeing is better. And I’m very happy to say that there’s one more step upwards you can take, and that is after wellbeing comes happiness. So happiness is actually the ultimate goal. To move to happiness. Because that means body, mind, and spirit is then in balance.

That’s also where some science is starting to point at. That your psyche is very closely connected to your health and wellbeing.

Wouter: What is wellbeing to you? What is happiness to you?

Peter: Well, Wouter. What is happiness to me? I must say, it’s a question of, you said a sense of wellbeing can actually be connected to nature. This sense of being part of something big. It can be a perfect golf shot of course. But I think happiness is a sense of perfection. You know when you’re working you can be in this sense of flow. And, so if that’s an answer. A sense of happiness and perfection, it won’t get better than this. That’s sort of happiness.

Wouter: It’s beautiful. Because any person I’ve talked to on the podcast basically made the connection to nature as the first starting point. You’re part of a big whole. So that’s great.
Last take-aways. If you were to advise just an average entrepreneur, an average professional, that has got the urge or the latent urge to make a meaningful impact, what would you advise them?

Peter: To make a meaningful impact?

Wouter: To do something extra. To Make their contribution. If you want to innovate the company or the brand, what is the starting point?

Peter: Well, the starting point is actually to have a very good product idea. And a product that works. And get sort of verified from your close friends or others. Then, let that product also be connected to a very clear purpose of what you aim to do and why you’re doing things. That can you then help build a strong brand. Because I mean, products will not build brands but the purpose will. So, if you have a strong purpose, if you want to change something, then go ahead and do that. Try to build a strong brand that can help you do that.

Wouter: Uhm, all of the questions were asked. Maybe you’ve got a final thought or a phrase you want to finish off with?

Peter: Well, I think it’s been good and interesting questions you asked. And I am hopeful for the future. That’s why we talk about game-changers. I do believe the game is changing and we see change. And see more and more how change is coming from the younger generations. And the future will be a burden on them. So they actually need to change things. And that is not just about the climate, it’s also about personal health. Because of the unhealth among the younger generation, based on the fact that they’re always connected, that they are stressed-out, and the psychological sort of wellbeing is worst than ever. So the younger generation is actually those who have the wellness challenge in their hands. So you could say, it is a wellness challenge, it’s a climate challenge, and these things go hand in hand. That’s why I do believe that we will see change.

Wouter: Even in our generations? Yours, mine, and my kids’?

Peter: Yes. I will, of course, be very old. I hope that I will sort of see a change in my life. And I, of course, hope for that for the sake of my children.

Wouter: Well, in my eyes you’re definitely one of the major game-changers. That’s why I admire you. That’s why I thank you so much for being on the show and giving such extensive and insightful information. I’ll be sure to pin down all the links to the report and to the blogs you write on the health side. Yeah, I will definitely also make short little summaries to keep feeding the audience on this side with your knowledge.

Peter: Thank you very much, Wouter. It’s been a pleasure talking to you.

Wouter: Ok. Stay in touch and enjoy your night.

Peter: Thank you Wouter, take care.